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 Atlas Shrugged.

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If you read this book, did you like it?
Yes
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No
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It goes against everything I believe in
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PostSubject: Atlas Shrugged.   Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:25 pm

It's a philosophy book by Ayn Rand.

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears not all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor--your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money, Is this what you consider evil?

"Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions--and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.

"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made--before it can be looted or mooched--made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced.'

"But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality--the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind.

"Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money--and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it.

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another--their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns--or dollars. Take your choice--there is no other--and your time is running out."

That's Part of a small speech from the book. My favorite. The whole thing, is here : Francisco's Money Speech
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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:46 pm

money can go both ways. it is the main source of value in this world, which is the object of greed, but at the same time it is convenient and having a value system prevents chaos. the proper phrase would be "GREED is the root of all evil".

1. people need things
2. they want more than they need (called greed)
3. there is not enough for everyone's wants
4. so to avoid chaos (people fighting and killing and stealing to get whatever they want), a system of values must be made
5. where currency is created (money)
6. and everything is assigned a value
7. so that people must work for what he or she wants
8. and is awarded with an equivalent amount of currency
9. so everyone can get what they need
10. but the amount of things a person can get is limited
11. based on their amount of currency
12. thus there is enough for everyone else

now, that is long and complicated. if you go back to part 2 and look at it, you will see that removing it will break the chain and solve the world's problems. of course, people are all greedy assholes, so that would never happen.
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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:45 pm

I am reading this pretty cool book call Brain Jack. Its about people like you guys, major computer nerds that hack junk. (The CIA and White house for example.)

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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:47 pm

seb0910 wrote:
money can go both ways. it is the main source of value in this world, which is the object of greed, but at the same time it is convenient and having a value system prevents chaos. the proper phrase would be "GREED is the root of all evil".

1. people need things
2. they want more than they need (called greed)
3. there is not enough for everyone's wants
4. so to avoid chaos (people fighting and killing and stealing to get whatever they want), a system of values must be made
5. where currency is created (money)
6. and everything is assigned a value
7. so that people must work for what he or she wants
8. and is awarded with an equivalent amount of currency
9. so everyone can get what they need
10. but the amount of things a person can get is limited
11. based on their amount of currency
12. thus there is enough for everyone else

now, that is long and complicated. if you go back to part 2 and look at it, you will see that removing it will break the chain and solve the world's problems. of course, people are all greedy assholes, so that would never happen.


So then a soccer player gaining 1,000,000$ per month works harder than a surgeon who only gains 1000$ per month? The worst part? Its true.

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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:33 pm

seb0910 wrote:
money can go both ways. it is the main source of value in this world, which is the object of greed, but at the same time it is convenient and having a value system prevents chaos. the proper phrase would be "GREED is the root of all evil".

1. people need things
2. they want more than they need (called greed)
3. there is not enough for everyone's wants
4. so to avoid chaos (people fighting and killing and stealing to get whatever they want), a system of values must be made
5. where currency is created (money)
6. and everything is assigned a value
7. so that people must work for what he or she wants
8. and is awarded with an equivalent amount of currency
9. so everyone can get what they need
10. but the amount of things a person can get is limited
11. based on their amount of currency
12. thus there is enough for everyone else

now, that is long and complicated. if you go back to part 2 and look at it, you will see that removing it will break the chain and solve the world's problems. of course, people are all greedy assholes, so that would never happen.

"I believe you are largely correct in your most of statements. The only statement I would take issue with is 'money can go both ways'. It is not so much that I even disagree with this but rather that on the surface, it can lead one to assume that money has some special property that can cause it to go both ways. Nearly everything in life that can be used can be used in multiple ways. Things are tools. A tool allows one to accomplish things with it that would be impossible (or certainly more difficult without it). A hammer can alternately be used to build a shelter or to smash a puppy. The hammer is not the root of either action.

Going a bit further though, wanting more than one needs is also not in and of itself a bad thing either. If everyone stopped working as soon as they had met their minimum needs in life, the world would be a pretty dismal place. Satisfaction of our wants has given us music, art, and arguably medicine and science. Of course people who choose to obtain either their wants or even their needs by dishonorable means give us murder, robbery and of course Justin Beiber.

Ayn Rand wrote "So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another--their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

Some may wish this were not true and long for altruism to rule peoples actions but this is both unlikely and inconsistent.
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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:37 pm

-theMbaude wrote:
seb0910 wrote:
money can go both ways. it is the main source of value in this world, which is the object of greed, but at the same time it is convenient and having a value system prevents chaos. the proper phrase would be "GREED is the root of all evil".

1. people need things
2. they want more than they need (called greed)
3. there is not enough for everyone's wants
4. so to avoid chaos (people fighting and killing and stealing to get whatever they want), a system of values must be made
5. where currency is created (money)
6. and everything is assigned a value
7. so that people must work for what he or she wants
8. and is awarded with an equivalent amount of currency
9. so everyone can get what they need
10. but the amount of things a person can get is limited
11. based on their amount of currency
12. thus there is enough for everyone else

now, that is long and complicated. if you go back to part 2 and look at it, you will see that removing it will break the chain and solve the world's problems. of course, people are all greedy assholes, so that would never happen.


So then a soccer player gaining 1,000,000$ per month works harder than a surgeon who only gains 1000$ per month? The worst part? Its true.

Actually, its not. How long does a surgeon have to go go medical school? 10 years? How long does a soccer player have to train? His life? This is true. The fact is, that a surgeon does more than kick a ball into a goal. His knowledge is far superior to the soccer players. He deserves more. He works harder. The surgeon saves lives. The soccer player, doesn't. Value for value. The value of one's life is greater than the value of entertainment for ones self.
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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:38 pm

i see topic,
i look...

ii see first post,
i leave....


try not to write novels IN the forums?

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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:41 pm

oh im sorry vyrus. see, some of us like this little thing called intellectual discussion. you know, because, as humans, we like to socialize and stuff, and some of us like to talk about these topics that cant be summarized in a couple sentences. what's a "novel" to you is the back of a cereal box for others, me included (ask bug how fast i read, he knows). and btw, this section is called Books, which is the source of our discussion.
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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:08 pm

seb0910 wrote:
oh im sorry vyrus. see, some of us like this little thing called intellectual discussion. you know, because, as humans, we like to socialize and stuff, and some of us like to talk about these topics that cant be summarized in a couple sentences. what's a "novel" to you is the back of a cereal box for others, me included (ask bug how fast i read, he knows). and btw, this section is called Books, which is the source of our discussion.

fine b that way, all im saying is that when people write a 2 - 3 page reply it doesn't make me want to read it

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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:58 pm

I r speed readr!
!pero mi grammatica es horrible!

natural born, my parents had to take classes to keep up with me in Bedtime Stories (when i was 5-7)

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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:12 am

Iridescent Blade wrote:
I r speed readr!
!pero mi grammatica es horrible!

natural born, my parents had to take classes to keep up with me in Bedtime Stories (when i was 5-7)

I just started taking spainish this year. Does that mean "but my grammer is horrible?"
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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:21 am

{ACRit}Spock wrote:
Iridescent Blade wrote:
I r speed readr!
!pero mi grammatica es horrible!

natural born, my parents had to take classes to keep up with me in Bedtime Stories (when i was 5-7)

I just started taking spainish this year. Does that mean "but my grammer is horrible?"
yes

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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:15 pm

Lol my spanish teacher was beast. In 4 years i became fluent. But now, since its been a while, I don't think I still have it. I get confused with french alot.


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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:26 pm

linux26 wrote:
{ACRit}Spock wrote:
Iridescent Blade wrote:
I r speed readr!
!pero mi grammatica es horrible!

natural born, my parents had to take classes to keep up with me in Bedtime Stories (when i was 5-7)

I just started taking spainish this year. Does that mean "but my grammer is horrible?"
yes

WOO HOO! Pero means but, mi means my, i assumed grammatica was a cognate, es means is, horrible is another cognate! WOO HOO!
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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:36 pm

you think about it too hard
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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:52 pm

lol, i picked palabras muy faciles.

spanglish ^

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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:52 pm

seb0910 wrote:
you think about it too hard
sorry, I was watching porn right before thinking about it

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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:50 pm

I like to think.
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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:28 pm

KNOWLEDGE is POWER!!

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PostSubject: Re: Atlas Shrugged.   Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:12 pm

-theMbaude wrote:
KNOWLEDGE is POWER!!

take that with

Quote :
a picture is worth a thousand words


and

linux26 wrote:
seb0910 wrote:
you think about it too hard
sorry, I was watching porn right before thinking about it

and u get:

Quote :
PORN = POWER


Spoiler:
 

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Atlas Shrugged.
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